Wednesday, July 25, 2007

I wonder if I should make the editorial decision on this blog to label all those who support Israel's right to exist as "Nakbah-deniers"? Thus, an announcement here would sound like this, "Rudolph Guliani, a former mayor of New York and a self-proclaimed Nakbah-denier has announced his intention of running for president, appointing Martin Kramer, another vehement Nakbah-denier as his Middle East policy advisor".

22 comments:

Marta Isabel Roberto said...

wassim, nice blog!!!

Wassim said...

Marta, thanks!

Anonymous said...

That's gonna be a whole lotta of Nakba-Deniers there, Wassim.

So you don't support a two state solution, but then, what is your one state or simply solution?

Marwan-

Wassim said...

Hello "Marwan"

julius said...

wassim, what do you say about the many who support israel's right to exist, yet also recognize the nakba?

Marvin the Martian said...

Shou ya Wassim, ma baddak tjawebne 3ala souale?

Oh and it's still Marwan.

Marwan-

Wassim said...

Welcome ya Marwan,
At least 3arftnah shway 3ala halak. I did answer your question in a previous post's comments, though I'm not sure why you didn't reply. It was and still remains a one state solution with a democratic state for all. There must be a complete dismantlement of Zionism as a state policy and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians must end period. Furthermore, the right of return for the Palestinians must be respected. That is a true compromise from Israel rather than dismantling a few huts in Gaza.

Wassim said...

Julius,
A good question. Unfortunately I have not a lot to say to such people. The statement you made earlier is itself a contradiction in my opinion. It's similar to stating that one supports German Aryanisation of it's society in 1938, but that they recognise the Holocaust. Unfortunately you can't have your cake and eat it as the saying goes.

Marvin the Martian said...

Wassim - I think that's a compromise that would unfortunately not be accepted by the Israeli government. Some may say, that your proposition is not really a compromise but rather a strategy to dilute Israel's identity into the arab muslim world thereby potentually threatening the presence of a Jewish enclave in the region.

Marvin the Martian said...

Wassim - what do you do for a living? are you a journalist?

Wassim said...

Marvin,
On your first comment, it is truly unacceptable for the current Israeli government but, unlike our illustrious Arab governments, the Israeli governments tend to not last a lifetime. Is this possible? Well, with enough pressure the South African government was eventually forced to abandon apartheid, I'm sure if the will was there, Zionism would eventually go the same way. As for attempts at diluting Jewish presence in the region, I disagree. Jewish Arabs have been an integral part of the fabric of our Middle Eastern and North African societies for millenia, the creation of Israel was a catastrophe for these societies as well as for the Arabs. It also focused the spotlight on them as possible fifth columnists and forced many to choose between Israel and their existing lives and homes. My answer to you is, how come the Circassians and the Armenians all migrated en masse to the region and became integral parts of society rather than destroy it? I believe it is because they did not come with the gun and with the support of Empire. We must also not confuse Zionism with Judaism, once that is clarified ending Zionism does not mean throwing the Jews into the sea. That is only my opinion on the subject.

Marvin the Martian said...

Wassim - The Armenians and Circassians were forced out of their homes. When they settled in the Middles East, they believed it to be a better life for them.

If Zionism have and continues to actively seek to destroy the Arab culture, what say you about the Islamic invasions that took over Persia and many nations in the Near East by force? What say you about the current situation of Christians in Egypt and Shiites in Saudi Arabia and many other Arab nations? What say you about the rise in Islamic Sunni radicalism in many nations across the Arab world and the notion that the Arab world is really a nation of Islam, Sunni Islam that is.

All of this to make the point that accusing Zionism of seeking to eradicate Arab culture does not stand well on its own given the long record of the Arab world in seeking to remove all noise or diversity from within its geographic boundary through political, physical, social, and legal means.

My perspective so to speak.
Marwan-

julius said...

wassim: i think comparing israel and nazi germany puts you on a slippery slope. in spite of frequent mention of genocide in connection with israel and the palestinians, there are no facts that bear this out. in fact, the palestinian population has increased exponentially under israeli occupation. where is this genocide? it's a serious charge.
while i appreciate your recalcitrant stance on zionism, i'm wondering what you think of the arabs who are also israeli citizens? many thousands of druze and beduin serve in the israeli army and there are thousands of arabs studying in israeli universities. surely they are supporters of israel and have come to terms with the nakba, yet still commemorate it.

Wassim said...

Marwan,
I appreciate your perspective, but allow me to correct you on a number of points you've made. Firstly it's wrong to go about talking about "Islamic invasions" which took over the Near East by force. Would you like me to question what right the Romans had in spreading their barbarous culture by force? Or the technicalities of the second Punic war and whether the sack of Carthage constituted a war crime? History is for the historians and while it shapes our present, we must take care not to try to interpret history with our own values and limited understanding.

What say I about the current situation of Christians in Egypt or Shiites in Saudi Arabia? I can say much about that, about the environment, the plight of Tibet, indigenous Indians in the rainforest and so on. The question is, why do you want me to focus on all these other matters and ignore the fact that Palestine is occupied?

Your last point confuses Arab with Islamic and also gives me a position which I have not taken. If you'd like to talk about each of these seperate topics at a separate time, I'm happy to, but here and now, I'm talking about Zionism.

I appreciate your perspective and I know how much Israel must be close to your heart for you to go through all this effort to justify it but the points you've made have done little to erode it's image as a racist and aggressive ideology which has done much damage to the people of the region. The onus is not on the people to stop resisting it, the onus is on Zionists to stop their aggression and ethnic cleansing. My question to you is why do you not ask Israeli's to allow all the Palestinian refugees to be allowed back to their homes? They quite clearly came from there and all refugees are allowed home after a war. Why can't they? Why are so many Lebanese still in Israeli prisons and why was Lebanon devastated so totally last year on the pretext of two captured soldiers? If the Arabs followed a similar rationale and had the same capabilities, then Israel should have been flattened fifty times over for all the prisoners it holds, let alone the land it occupies.

Wassim said...

Hello Julius,
Slippery slope indeed, especially with the subject matter. Regardless, I take it you understood the severity of the Nakba which was the reason behind my comparison.

Your point about Arabs who are also Israeli citizens implies that they have somehow accepted what has happened, perhaps yes or no. Buying off sections of the population is an old trick of occupation armies and those who cooperate are as guilty as the invaders. I think it was DeGaulle who gave 48 hours for the settling of scores once France was liberated and should Israel continue it's aggression, I fear the worst for those who have cooperated with it. I do find it insulting your claim that some have come to terms with the Nakba, yet still commemorate it. The Nakba is a very very serious affair and making flippant comments about it like it's some Guy Fawkes celebration is insulting to those who still wish to go back to their homes and land. I don't find that amusing at all and it is inexcusable for those Arabs you speak of to behave this way, or in fact, support Israel.

Marvin the Martian said...

Wassim - Your answer just proved my point. If we are to talk about Zionism and it's implications, why not about the Romans, the Catholic Church during the middle ages and even after, Radical Islam etc...Furthermore, I am not confusing the Arab culture with Islam, it's an amazing culture that one should be proud off. Alas, my virtual friend, what we are experiencing today is a complete shift where Arabism has been slowly taken over by radical logic, similar to what America is facing today with the evangelical Christian heart.

Wassim - I am reminded daily of the dehumanization of the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, and elsewhere. I can only compare Palestinians to orphans who are left to be "raised" by a mean stepmother and a powerless stepfather. The conditions of Palestinians today is not a reflection of the Israeli government's racist actions or the Arab world lack of courage only, it is the reflection of a world gone silent. We should all be ashamed.

I like to think a quest for more light and the truth is what's most dear to my heart. Israel's attitude in Lebanon is beyond acceptable - I am Lebanese after all and the grievance of the southerners and those that lived in the Da7hieh are mine - but the reaction of the Arab world and let's face it the Siniroa government - Ahel el bayt izza baddak - was enraging at best.

Israel SHOULD allow Palestinians to return home. Israel should stop it's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. Israel should recognize a Palestinian state in my opinion with East Jerusalem as its capital.

Wassim - You and I and others from the Middle East need to work towards changing our own systems, our own governments. What's wrong with being happy and living descently? The reason we don't have true weight in the middle east peace process if you want to call it that or in world affairs is because our leadership's only interest is to maintain power at the expense of national interest and the interest of the people.

7allna ba'a ya Wassim.

Again, I truly appreciate your input. Reading your posts and the efort you put in responding to my comments are appreciated.

Marwan-

julius said...

wassim: you do not have a very nuanced view of israeli arabs/palestinians. there is a wide variety of opinion regarding the israeli state within the druze, beduin and arab (christian and muslim) communities in israel. as i mentioned earlier, some of those communities actively support their state. and their is dissension within as well.
i think you entertain an unrealistic and untenable fantasy regarding palestinian return to pre-1967 homes. this is unrealistic and will never happen. i'd like to know how and why you think it could actually occur. most of these villages are long gone. as marwan mentioned, armenians and circassians were forced from their homes and found refuge further south. if you weren't aware, displacement is a common and recurring theme in human history. it's often tragic, but resettlement can be also be beneficial in regenerating communities. it can also be detrimental, destroying communities in the end. regardless, it's a reality that has occurred and continues to occur worldwide.
that palestinian refugees have been caged in refugee camps in the countries surrounding israel is testament to this refusal to accept reality and is detrimental to palestinian life - economic and cultural. at some point, someone has to face reality.

Wassim said...

Julius,
Just listen to yourself and listen to what you are starting to justify. Look what your line of reasoning has turned into...

julius said...

yes, it's a line of reasoning by someone who is willing to face a harsh reality rather than fantasize about a dream that will never materialize. it's tragic, but that's life.

Wassim said...

That's not life, just your point of view.

julius said...

enjoy your dream, wassim. i hope you won't be too surprised when you wake up.

Lirun said...

so kick us out of every arab country - either by policy or through rampage and then flood us with those who ran away after trying to kick us out of the only place we got into - that happens to be where we are from..

thats called double dipping..

not going to happen..